Total Manual VS Step/Tip-Tronic

[resilienthunter]

Was wondering..are there major differences between the 2? (manual vs step/tip-tronic) 'Cos Auto and manual cars the power etc differences are quite big..

anyone has any idea?

 

[zan]

there are two type of tiptronics...

one there is the automatic transmission where u can select the gears by sequence manually. toyota harrier and mitsubishi FTO is such example.

then there is the manual gearbox which has motorised clutch and automated gear shifter. u select gear also by sequence, manually w/out clutch pedal. i know Alfa 156 Selespeed is using this. erm, i think others include BMW SMG. Audi DSG.

for the latter, there are no power differences with similar powered model with manual tranny. but gearchange is faster by miliseconds and they can also be used in fully automatic mode.

i would go for traditional manual cars. it brings out the real driver in you.

SMG =Sequence Manual gearbox
DSG = Double Sequential Gearbox

 

[si|verfish]

That's not the only problem. There is a bigger problem.

That is most of these semi-auto, clutchless manuals - whatever you want to call it - SUCK, big time. Only a few systems are actually good, and they are only on expensive machines.

Many manufacturers are coming out with these systems and even putting them in normal, not very expensive cars, which are great, in theory. You'll discover it isn't such a good idea when it breaks down every fortnight, refuses to select certain gears, takes an entire second to change gear and jerks the living crap out of you when it does.

 

[sam1741]

traditional one
u have total control of your clutch...

 

[taqu]

Well, one can custom made sequential gearbox eg from Xtrac as they're one of gearbox supplier for WRC cars. Upshift/downshift below 200 miliseconds. Well, if one have at least RM100,000 to order one of those gearbox.

If i got tons of money, I'd go for sequential gearbox, don't care la about "driver skill", as even Schumacher won't be able to shift manual gearbox as fast as sequential gearbox.

 

[boggysv]

yup, the nightmare of most alfa owners happens when the selespeed shows problem.
So far, I think the SMGII and the DSG are reliable.

Unlike the rest of the world,the american market seems to like the traditional stick more compared to all these automated manuals. BMW tried to sell the M5 in the US with the smg, but sales was not high. Now they have to introduce the manual version.

 

[si|verfish]

Thing is the Americans are so fat and big, they break the paddles everytime they use it, thanks to their sausage fingers.

I would like to dismiss the fact that these gearboxes can change faster than you could on a normal manual. The ones on Smarts for example (made by Mercedes mind you) takes 2 years to upshift.

 

[ModMaestro]

I think aside from shifting speed, the undisputed advantage traditional manual have over the semi auto is weight. I know that's a major reason why E39 M5 and the same batch RS6 drivers are skeptical about the new models.

 

[k3nny]

Predominantly, the box is what it is.

Pure manual aside,

A Steptronic/Tiptronic box is an AUTOMATIC box with a manual seletion mode.
The gear changes in the exact same way that it would as if left to change on its own except you instructed it to change

It still employs torque converters which is where alot of the drivetrain losses with auto and manual cars go.

A semi-manual/sequential manual gearbox ala SMG, SMGII, DSG, Selespeed is a MANUAL box with an automatic selection mode. Its like a conventional manual box except the features that enable it to shift without the traditional notion of depressing a clutch and shifting on its own too. Some hydraulic clutches, some 2 clutches... EIther ways, its a manual box unlike the above.

The pure manual box will never shift as fast as a semi-manual/sequential manual gearbox nor will it be able to match the consistency of the shifts however it does offer driver involvement and certain manouvers such as heel and toe?

SMG II blips the throttle for you automatically while downshifting so no need to heel and toe lor.

I dont know about the drivetrain losses between the sequential boxes and the pure manual boxes though although i would bet the differences, if any, are minimal.

 

[resilienthunter]

Predominantly, the box is what it is.

Pure manual aside,

A Steptronic/Tiptronic box is an AUTOMATIC box with a manual seletion mode.
The gear changes in the exact same way that it would as if left to change on its own except you instructed it to change

It still employs torque converters which is where alot of the drivetrain losses with auto and manual cars go.

A semi-manual/sequential manual gearbox ala SMG, SMGII, DSG, Selespeed is a MANUAL box with an automatic selection mode. Its like a conventional manual box except the features that enable it to shift without the traditional notion of depressing a clutch and shifting on its own too. Some hydraulic clutches, some 2 clutches... EIther ways, its a manual box unlike the above.

The pure manual box will never shift as fast as a semi-manual/sequential manual gearbox nor will it be able to match the consistency of the shifts however it does offer driver involvement and certain manouvers such as heel and toe?

SMG II blips the throttle for you automatically while downshifting so no need to heel and toe lor.

I dont know about the drivetrain losses between the sequential boxes and the pure manual boxes though although i would bet the differences, if any, are minimal.

ooo.. icicic.. very detailed , good writeup!

 

[si|verfish]

You are using examples of the good, very trick gearboxes. For every good semi-manual, semi auto (whatever) gearbox, there are 2 more that are crap and rubbish. Take the Aston Martin range for example. The gearbox on the Vanquish for example is a manual box with auto selection. Which sounds good, like you say. But it isn't. In fact it is rubbish. The one on the DB9 on the other hand is an auto box with manual selection mode, which is supposed to be inferior to the one in the Vanquish, like you say. But it isn't. In fact, it is better than the one on the Vanquish and faster on the track.

In conclusion, theory doesn't always equate to reality.

 

[k3nny]

You are using examples of the good, very trick gearboxes. For every good semi-manual, semi auto (whatever) gearbox, there are 2 more that are crap and rubbish. Take the Aston Martin range for example. The gearbox on the Vanquish for example is a manual box with auto selection. Which sounds good, like you say. But it isn't. In fact it is rubbish. The one on the DB9 on the other hand is an auto box with manual selection mode, which is supposed to be inferior to the one in the Vanquish, like you say. But it isn't. In fact, it is better than the one on the Vanquish and faster on the track.

In conclusion, theory doesn't always equate to reality.

You have a very valid point. In fact, BMW's SMG I which appeared on late models of the E36 M3 and some E46 Sedan/Coupes were nothing short of lousy.

My point is, regarding the merits of the box of course, is that with regards to consistency, and i emphasize consistency, and often shift speed, even so with the box on the Vanquish, it superceedes that of a human operating a manual box.

You just cant beat the consistency of machinery. Of course, they are riddled with problems, harshness and etc but heck, my point was to list out the different types of boxes out there and the differences between them but since the merits of the box has appeared, there you go.

I stand by the fact that a human operated manual box can never beat a machine/computer when it comes to consistency with shift speeds.

And with regards to your comparison with the boxes of the DB9 and Vanquish, i dont know the details of the boxes but this i can tell you.

1. Auto boxes use torque converters and they will always pose a greater drivetrain loss than their manual counterparts.

2. The minimum shift time of the Aston Martin Vanquish's Semi Manual gearbox is 250ms.
Ferrari Enzo is 150ms
Ferrari 575M is 220ms

Suddenly it doesnt look so bad afterall eh?


Somehow rather, if the DB9 is faster around the track when compared to the Vanquish, it must be due to something else besides the fact that the DB9 has the "ADVANTAGE" which i highly doubt, of an automatic gearbox.

Bring 2 equal cars with equal weight and etc etc and put the 2 boxes, and i wont assure, but can be quite sure myself that the Semi Manual box will come out on top or at least a fair majority of win's afterall, the semi manual box is all about consistency right?

Either ways, im not an advocate of semi manual boxes as they reduce the level of driver involvement but you just cant look past their advantages and of course, newer models like SMGII ala M3 and SMGIII ala M5/M6 bear so little disadvantages except of course, reducing the level of driver involvement.

 

[si|verfish]

You are half right. Machinery is only faster and more consistent when it is well designed and well built. The Vanquish being a very good example, I shall stick with it. The most frustrating thing about its gearbox is that, not only does it break easily and jerks like nothing else, it doesn't change when the driver wants it too. It just doesn't give the driver the gear he wants when he wants it. And that is the final nail in its coffin I'm afraid.

 

[k3nny]

You are half right. Machinery is only faster and more consistent when it is well designed and well built. The Vanquish being a very good example, I shall stick with it. The most frustrating thing about its gearbox is that, not only does it break easily and jerks like nothing else, it doesn't change when the driver wants it too. It just doesn't give the driver the gear he wants when he wants it. And that is the final nail in its coffin I'm afraid.

Granted you are correct when you mention that machinery is faster when it is well designed and well built but consistency will occur regardless.

Given certain thresholds of industrial testing by which the cars are put through before production, the gearbox can be operated within the confines of those limits without failure.

Jerking and breaking easily is a problem with all the semi manual boxes when they made their emergence. Even BMW's SMGI.

When i say consistency, i mean consistency with shift times given the fact that it shifts properly at every go.

Meaning, if one shift takes 250ms, chances are very high the next shift will be 250ms as well or if not, maybe a deviation of +/- 10ms.

It doesnt take into account the times the box fails to engage or the times the box breaks or selects the wrong gear which i dont see how it can select the wrong gear because its not an automatic gearbox right? So the computer doesnt "select" the gear per se.

So with regards to consistency, yes, the semi manual box will achieve the 250ms every time or with slight deviations such as +/-10ms.

Can you say this for a human operating the manual box? I highly doubt so..

I was demonstrating the ability of the box to shift within that time parameter and not so much the box's ability to actually shift(ie: missing gears or enterring the wrong gear). It just emphasizes the fact that everytime the box shifts, it will shift within 250ms +/-10ms or very close to that which is a level of precision and accuracy a human cannot achieve hence its superiority in this aspect.

 

[si|verfish]

Valid points.

So in a race, would you bet on a Vanquish with a sequential manual (granted it doesn't break down) or one with a proper manual (granted the driver is a good enough)? I'd go for the proper manual. And I'm sure the Stig agrees ;)

Anyway, there are sequential manuals that take seconds to shift (such as those on Citroens and Smarts and Renaults) which is horrid by any standards. So, you'll still rather stick with the inconsistent human shifting rather than the consistently slow machine shifting.

 

[k3nny]

Valid points.

So in a race, would you bet on a Vanquish with a sequential manual (granted it doesn't break down) or one with a proper manual (granted the driver is a good enough)? I'd go for the proper manual. And I'm sure the Stig agrees ;)

Anyway, there are sequential manuals that take seconds to shift (such as those on Citroens and Smarts and Renaults) which is horrid by any standards. So, you'll still rather stick with the inconsistent human shifting rather than the consistently slow machine shifting.

Essentially, i'd place my bet on the guy with the semi-manual box given equal driver skill for a majority of wins.. just seems like a stronger case of probabilities.. :D

Correct me if im wrong but isnt the one on the Mercedes Smart essentially an auto box with a manual function being a automatic box and not a manual box as such? Isn't it built by Magnetti Marelli as well?

Once again, not too sure about Citroen's or Renaults but im sure they would employ automatic boxes with manual function ie tiptronic. Even Hyundai does in its Sonata..

I dont recall Citroen or Renault having any mass market distributed hi-po cars that would neccesitate the use of a sequential manual box..

I know the C5 is an autobox.. dont know about the rest..

Great points you made man and heck, Aston Martin is supposed to be renowned for world class automobiles and quality.. What are they thinking putting a semi manual in their cars? Probably sold like 5 of them in the whole production time? :D

 

[boggysv]

I would place my bet on micheal schumaker driving a kancil with a conventional manual versus me in an Evo 7 GTA.

Considering the fact that I live in KL, I would opt for a automated manual anytime in my daily car. But no torque conveters or CVT please.

Will still like to hold on to an ocassional stick on weekends:D
^^^makes me sound like a homo

 

[si|verfish]

kenny: I'm not too sure about the Smarts gearbox actually, but if it is an auto box with manual override it should be faster, just like a normal auto shifting.

Citroen, again not sure which it is but Renault i think I'm right in saying has a automated manual system, which Proton is going to stick in the Savvy.

boggysv: I think you have a little too much faith in Schumachers abilities. No matter how good he is, what can he do in a kancil that tops out at 140 - 160?

If you want a car with a good gearbox, get one with Audi's DSG system. Fabulous it is.

 

[prozac]

Best is to get 2 cars; one auto for relaxed/city driving and a manual for hardcore/track.

DSG is a nice technology but I still prefer the ability to slip the clutch now and then. Maybe DSG2 will incorporate a clutch pedal for optional use? *wishful thinking*

 

[boggysv]

I was just joking about MS . I find it useless to argue over the internet untill you really see it happen.

Sadly, the only DGS car in malaysia now is the VW golf.
Altough Audi pioneered the DSG development, VW is it's parent company.

The DSG can be found on the Audi A3 and the TT(new TT, havent seen any in malaysia yet). Both cars are not in malaysia yet...and even if it is, I doubt the pricing to be under 300k for either 1.