Nuclear power

[csl]

After recent Japan nuclear plant incident, many parties straight come out, either ask for revise or drop the nuclear power plan. I don't know it is just based on politics, or nuclear power is so fragile and dangerous.

After reading some reports from everywhere, I realized that the failure of the Japan nuclear plant was due to cooling system malfunction and caused the nuclear reactor overheat. Primary electric cooling pump failed after the grid damage by Tsunami and the backup diesel pump also dead because of Tsunami. They then triggered the emergency pump which operate by battery. But to bad, the battery can only last for 8 hours. Nothing to do with the building material or spare parts failed due to material or any other things else, including the reactor stability.

I'm not here to talk about nuclear technology. I'm here to talk about attitude, which can damage the people greater and longer than a nuclear plant explosion.

After the Japan incident, people straight make a conclusion, if we build nuclear plant, we sure will die. But they are at least better than those who think we all definitely will die, long before the japan incident. Again, I'm not talking about pro or con of nuclear power.

Bad thinking or attitude:

1. Before study a case in details, straight make conclusion.
2. Do not even think about solution.
3. Do not dare for move forward. Choose to retrieve in stead.
4. Vision only point to what hope to be seen, object every other things else.

Some politicians and some smart a$$ keep on poping out on this issue. Don't know what's their intention or they really afraid of nuclear. If they are afraid, then I'll be very disappointed. They are just like a child who hit & whacked by father during small, when grown up, father just shout, their legs straight shaking and wanna pea and head face down then say yes. If they just try to use this for attracting vote tickets, just tell those stories for the majority likes, then they are totally a highly paid lousy whore. Yes, Chua Sai-Leak is the best example. But DAP had a sai leak incident just right after the plan for future nuclear powered electricity source announced. KNN, I wasted my typing effort to put them in.

I'll see what Najib will say. If his legs also shaky until sai leak from the back and just call off the plan without study and provide details explanation, he also not worth a sh!t. If he don't care about my vote, he can go ahead, since my vote worth nothing compare millions of Malaysians who are having the sai leak syndrome like mr. chua.

It will be ok for Malaysian to live with or without nuclear power. After all, just slow down the development speed, use resources to subsidize the rakyat and make them happy will be ok. Next generation, just let next generation people to settle their problems. We care about our own selves is enough.

 

[arturo]

i agree with CSL..sometimes i wonder if they ever do any research on any of their mega projects....such as the 100storey tower and the langkawi tower

 

[csl]

There are many types of people in the country. Got agree and got disagree and also got no opinion. The leaders have the responsibility to explain why, to the people for making something big happen, for not making it happen, or etc, in a correct manner. It is not just go to the stage and tell people they wanna prevent rape case so all women must balut from head to toe and no objection kind of bullsht (if they can proof arab and middle east contrty got 0 rape case, then I'm the one who bullsht). We demand for detail explanation for the sake of the country future. We refuse to be manipulated by power/money hungry opportunist. We refuse to be lead by no balls coward. We also refuse to be directed to Holland by stupid azzhole.

My request is not over the limit. I just wanna know the reason, so should not involved with any secret or controlled information or any security involved info. Japan Nuke failed for 1st 2 cooling source and last backup motor battery drained after 8 hours. Do they ever think about increase the volume of cooling source, fast shut down system or anything else for solution before saying NO? KNN, I hate people who don't take responsibility on WTF they are talking to the public. They are misleading people direct and indirectly which is consider a lie, a cheat and a fcking big bullsht.

the recent case on the interlock book also a good example. What wrong with it? Why important history to be taught at school must refer to the best part of the history? Why people should not know the worst time happen to their ancestors? In this case, I felt the gov is so weak. It has no stands on its principle. It has no intention to teach adults how to think. It is just like a neighbor who saw a kid stole his flower. He is not happy and he want to catch the kid and send to the kid's parent. But he think "aiya, flower only mar, never mind la. no need to make it big". Another time happen again. He keep on tahan and tahan. After 15 years. Finally the kid become a thief and the neighbor suffering for physiological illness. We all clearly know the objection parties is trying to get attention from the people and gain political power then easier to get gov contract, especially from GLC. But no one say anything except that few honest people stand up for the principle and face the power/money hungry parties.

Sad.

 

[g4i8y0t]

As far as I know, the power output of power plants in this country (hydro, coal, gas plants) is still below their full capacity. TNB actually have to pay for spare capacity or reserve margins, even if unused. Because of this, there is no need for nuclear power plant for the time being.

 

[csl]

'We' don't 'feel' like needing nuclear power for time being because we are subsidized. If remove the subsidization, everyone will go to the street and launch a bunga raya operation. Nuclear plant is not say you wanna build and you can get it done in 1-2 months time. It is a long term thing, be it constructing or the beneficial to be seen.

The soonest we got it, the less money we burnt. A simple as that.

And, if it gonna blow out, I hope it blow out in my time. Not in my next 2-3 generation time. I don't want to see my future generation to be suffer. I rather suffer for them.

There is no such thing like 'now don't need'. Now you are still young and don't need to save money for retirement? With this nuclear plan, if the electricity charges remain the same, the gov will have money to launch a series of project to bail out those people who don't save money during young and fck up when old.

TNB waste money on the reserve power is to maintain the 3rd party suppliers profit. If no profit, 3rd party can always do other business and TNB have to spend more money for the starting point and lose more money in business for long term due to the volume. When the revenue drop, share market price drop RM0.05, many people will be bankrupt. Out source those 3rd party can save a lot of headache, including the responsibility on something which I don't like to mention here. Not effect the share market and able to generate income. Other than that, need to ask those who had been study business or account. Things just cannot judge by the surface.

If we do have an options for building a solar harvest system which have 50% of the nuclear plant efficiency, I'll not opt for nuclear of cause. This is the cheapest choice for now and not gonna be an alternative options in near future. Except, every family can afford to buy a house, able to buy that US$19xxx worth of solar system, and able to buy new batteries which cost thousands of US$ every 5-6 years. Maybe you can ask toyota or honda how much they sell the hybrid car battery.

 

[MaximKo]

Not saying impossible. But using talk is not enough. Maybe it will happen, and that time it will be like after century i think. No offence.

 

[g4i8y0t]

csl, you're right in this case. We need to think about our energy demands some 20-30 years in the future. I think for about 600 nuclear power plants all over the world, there were only 2 involved in accidents like this one in Japan and the other one would be Chernobyl. The accident rate is less than 0.1%. But if it happens, well.. The effects of radioactive poisoning is very painful. In other words, you die slow.. :saint:

Also, many people when hearing about the nuclear accident in Japan, tend to forget that there are many more disasters that can strike us without or with very little warning (volcano, hurricane, solar flare etc).

I hope any plan to build a nuclear power plant must be backed up with extensive studies by many authorities and international organisation who are experts in this nuclear thing.

Pray for the best, plan for the worst.

 

[dr_snape_79]

In future we still need for nuclear power. How long we want to depend on our oils and coals? Later on we will gonna face on insufficient of all this thing.

 

[mizunori77]

i do not dispute the fact that in the future, Malaysia could be facing an energy crisis like many other countries as the population and the industry grows to a certain size.

however, the real concern is WHY nuclear?

there are many more cleaner alternative energy to be considered and we have countries moving in that direction - cleaner and more efficient energy.

IF the argument for a nuclear power plant was to cater for future needs, shouldn't the energy project take into consideration, the environmental degradation in the future also?

to put things into perspective, let's say:

1. nuclear = fuel injection engines
2. green energy = hybrid or electric engines

IF we are interested in the future, shouldn't we be working on hybrid or electric engines?

like i said, there is no dispute that we would face an energy crisis soon. the question that remains is, WHY choose nuclear for the FUTURE when other alternative energy that are much cleaner is available TODAY?

for example, the aviation industry had been testing new alternative fuels a few yeas ago. several passenger carriers had successfully run jet fuel+algae fuel mixture (50-50 ratio) in cross-atlantic flights.

if an industry can look far ahead 5 years ago, why are we just looking in front of our nose?

on the costs of implementation, sometimes we get drawn by the so-called dollars and cents, when we should be looking from a larger perspective.

even if nuclear is cheaper to build compared to clean and alternative energy, what about other costs such as the environment (air, soil, water source), health (especially those who work at the plants), infrastructure and logistics, new laws and regulations to regulate the nuclear industry and to protect the public, new medical skills and facilities required to handle large scale radiation poisoning, and many many more.

 

[csl]

Actually last night I thought about the risk thing. Look at those unlucky one who injured and dead in Japan, the combination of Tsunami and nuclear plant fail only kill 4.3k people and injured some 13k people. But look back to our country, every year, average got more than 5.5k people had sacrificed themselves for the road and some 30-50k of others had injured. The risk of nuclear plant can't be justified as high risk. People can only say it is just like a plane. If nothing happen, it will be the safest transportation in the world. But if got accident then mostly will die, depends on situation, there were case that passenger still can survive.

Everything can be solved for so far, including safety, management, maintenance and etc. Only 1 thing I'm worry about. It is war. War between countries, war against extremist, or even an inner political war. Due to this involved with internal security, I cannot say too much. But I hope someone can see this and think how to solve the problem.

All things are actually can be fixed if there is an unlimited resource provided. But there is impossible cuz end of the day better use solar due to the total cost. The only possibility to have best efficiency vs cost for now, is to work together with Singapore to share the defensive cost and also the management specialist. We not necessary have to give them certain % of shares but we can trade electricity supplies as an exchange. Of cause give shares make things go smoother.

Again, i'm not sure if we are heading towards the path. If we decided to be standstill on the same spot, then talk what also no use. Oil and gas and coal are gonna deplete some day. Those young fellows now will face the energy disaster during their middle age crisis period. Hybrid cars is the warning sign. All countries gov allow hybrid car to be launch is the sign that the handover stage had been started. A full functional performance electric car already appeared a decade ago and just announce few months back. Unfortunately the heart is mounted on super car so that toyota honda no need to have the pressure from ordinary people for launching a full electric car.

Aiya, almost forget, alternative fuel is just like prepaid phone line and something massive like nuclear plant, solar/wind power harvest plant will be like fixed line. Long term cost can only calculated by genius. On my own opinion based on no fact, nuclear is the most cost effective available. I prefer solar if the maintenance cost can be greatly reduced or lifespan greatly pro-longed. If wanna make Malaysia a full solar country, RM1200 Billion should be enough.



ref 1 : Malaysia: Road Accidents Statistic 2000-2006
ref 2 : Number missing or dead in Japan nears 13,000 - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[BE5RSK]

Do we really need nuclear power as a replacement for energy that we have now? How about in 20-30 years time? Are we ready for it? Who is going to build it? Government or Private company? How much the cost to build nuclear powerplant? So, the monthly bill will be cheaper than the current one (assume we use it like usually)? Where to get uranium? Can we manage it? How about renewable energy (solar, wind, etc)? There are lots of question playing in my mind

But whatever it is, before we change our mindset/phobia on nuclear power, I think we need to change our mindset first on appreciating energy (especially electric) that we have now. We should use it wisely and not to waste/lavish it. Use it when we really need it. Low consumption mean low monthly bill. If everybody playing their role, then we can extend the period before our country reach its maximum capacity of energy supply.

Howver, we have MINT (Nuclear agency) under MOSTI. I believe they have some knowledge and do study on potential of nuclear power plant in Malaysia since long time ago.

 

[FVel]

even if nuclear is cheaper to build compared to clean and alternative energy, what about other costs such as the environment (air, soil, water source), health (especially those who work at the plants), infrastructure and logistics, new laws and regulations to regulate the nuclear industry and to protect the public, new medical skills and facilities required to handle large scale radiation poisoning, and many many more.

On that point, how many of you here actually deal with the Atomic Energy Licensing Board (AELB) on a regular basis ?

Well, I do and, yes, this country has an AELB and this had been so for a long time.

They are headquartered at Bangi in a large and posh complex.

Trouble is, without elaborating in too much detail, the AELB, as with most Govt departments, are a bunch of misfits.

Getting them to properly service the industries that come under their purview is an exercise in frustration. At the moment, I see them to be, at most, another irrelevant administrative arm of the G.

I suppose when we actually hit the energy crisis.........when push really comes to shove....they will sort of spur from their slumber and make a token attempt at proposing a solution.

But as it is, you can forget about them proactively leading the energy initiatives. Half the twats who work there probably still think 'radioactive' means someone who works on the morning show at Mix-FM.

 

[csl]

People in most GLC or gov related agency are like that. 1st they think they are smart, 2nd they think they are VVIP. But I cannot deny that situation had been cured a bit compare to those days. I'm not sure if those people in that particular dept are so shitty, but 1 thing for sure, if we start building a nuclear plant, overseas specialist sure will be in charge for at least several years and make sure we can handle it by ourselves. If no management cunnnt so smart and cut the cost at beginning or in the future, things will be fine. Every parts changed according to the schedule, every step follow procedure and most probably there will be remote monitoring or control. If Boeng jet engine can be serviced in Malaysia, I'm sure this nuclear plant will be alright. After all, it is just a steam generator that move a giant alternator. The nuclear inside is just as dangerous as our car engine. Just its damage coverage is greater and longer. If don't maintain it like most Malaysian maintain their cars or pump some volume out from the tank like petrol tanker driver steal fuel, nothing will be happen. But sometimes sht does happen so one of the management responsible is to come up a procedure to prevent the sht happen.

I concern more on the attitude from the leaders and some of the rakyat. Wrong attitude will do create damage, wrong decision make good thing turned bad.

 

[mizunori77]

CSL,

I don't think it is logical to link Nuclear meltdowns with vehicular accidents based on the number of deaths alone.

Furthermore, survivors of vehicular accidents and their lineage don't carry the risk of getting cancer from accidents, unlike a nuclear meltdown.

From my limited knowledge (which came from Google), most nuclear power plants is located near the sea or a large water source to provide for cooling purposes.

It takes 800++ gallons (about 3.2k liters) of water to provide cooling for 1megawatt. As Malaysia plans to have two 1,000MW nuclear plants, we are looking at 6.4 million liters of water.

As the government and some analysts are saying that the country would be facing water shortage in the future, just like how we would be facing energy shortage in the future, i doubt that they can afford to use freshwater to cool the nuclear plants.

sea water is drawn to the plant to cool it and the hot water is redirected back to sea.

If the nuclear plants are located near the sea, what else are the implications?

1. environmental concerns on the ecology. i read somewhere that prolonged high temp (approximately 30+ C) at the outlet area does not help marine life at all.

2. Malaysia is surrounded by neighbours such as Indonesia and the Philippines that are prone to earthquakes. what happens if a tsunami hits?

3. how would the fishermen and the fishing industry be affected (although most of them fish at the borders if Indonesia as our fish supply is already depleted)?

4. what about the most cost effective infrastructure to supply and distribute the electricity to the rest of the peninsular?

5. continuing on number 4, i am guessing that Penang, Selangor and Johor most likely consumes the most electricity in peninsular malaysia and the two nuclear plants would have to be located near these 3 states. since selangor and penang refuse to have a nuclear plant in the state, it means that it would be located at a neighbouring state, like perak or pahang. what are the economic and the social impact of those states?

6. land space is also another issue. i think there is a minimum safety distance between a nuclear reactor and commercial/residential areas. this means the power plants would need more space, which means more trees would be cut down.

the weather patterns had changed a lot recently, with many states experiencing floods. what would happen when more trees are cut down and the sky pours like it has a very bad case of food poisoning?

7. even if the people managing the nuclear plant are well-trained and know what they are doing? what about the emergency support services?

it is one thing to know what to do when massive flooding occurs but it is another different thing altogether if mass evacuation is needed due to the wind taking the radiation leak inland or city bound.

and btw, shit does happen, even when u r prepared. look at japan, they even have a tsunami retaining wall at the port in iwate but the tsunami breached the walls because of the sheer volume of sea water. waves between 6m and 10m in height sweeped as far as 6km inland, killing thousands of people.

best practices and procedures cant save you from mother nature. it is what you are able to do after that which counts.

for the moment, i don't think our emergency support services can handle it. :hmmmm:

FVel, tks for sharing... i totally forgot Malaysia has the AELB...

 

[csl]

I would prefer to have nuclear plant set up in the middle. Probably johor. build emergency cooling supply pipe line from east coast and west coast. Main cooling will be a man made lake or something.

A sales package for building a nuclear plant is not like selling a shoe production factory. Everything controlled by international related organization (exmaple WNO and etc). Buy and sales parties must fulfill the requirement then only can have a deal. Nothing will be less. Even political thing will be studied. If not, many countries can have nuclear already.


Again, many problems can be solved provided willing to dump money. The only thing cannot solved by money is the attitude. Just like merz owner can have money to buy expensive car but like to serbis their car at bawah pokok mechanic who check tuning by ear. If we can't correct our own attitude or behavior, talk what also no use. Solar power also will kill people.

 

[netmatrix]

I would prefer we go solar and wind than nuke. But it cost less to build a nuke plant than solar or wind combined. We can't go geothermal as we don't have too many hot stuff running under our country.

 

[csl]

Short and long term cost will be more than nuclear by far margin and occupied massive space, just to produce 50% of a nuclear plant output.

We of cause have another alternative - use palm oil to burn. Long term cost will be very scary and of cause, the carbon index will be sky high. Many people will get cancer and that will be after their retire age. Effected coverage will be wider than a nuclear plant explode and more difficult to detect. All sickness only come after long period of continuous expose.

If want go solar, it will be encourage individual to buy themselves (like china and taiwan). If wind, not to say may effect the eco system but there are something hidden and of cause, 1 giant generator barely can provide enough output for a family so how much space needed is a question. Batteries to store the power is a very big problem.

There are actually more technical thing on every type of energy source. Many countries had studied and finally picked nuclear not for no reason. It is not that they cannot effort but there is really some issues that had never disclosed and ordinary people doesn't have a clue. Who in this world don't know nuclear plant explode will create a mess BTW.

 

[netmatrix]

Would nuke plant work in space without oxigen?

 

[jat1917]

read this n the comment..http://chedet.co.cc/chedetblog/2009/05/nuclear-power.html#more

 

[csl]

TDM already mention: we do not know much about nuclear.

If don't know much how the rest of the writing can be justified?

I read some comments over there and not really useful after all. All I can say is, Oil is gonna finish. We are not as capable as a lot of countries in terms of having huge reserves. Things that put in front of our table are nuclear, solar and wind. I don't like to dream about future. I'm those who gonna build a future type of people. Car accident kill more people so don't drive car? Plane crash kill everyone so ban flight? Gas tank in house just like a bomb so only eat sushi? From this nuclear thing, again, I found another bad attitude - Lazy to study and straight go with assumption.

All nuclear countries now revising their nuclear plant. What they are revising? To shut down immediately and not use in the future? Or revising their emergency plan? or revising what can be upgrade to prevent sht happen? Or just a drama to show that their gov do care about people? Or whatever you can think.

We are steered by the news and news from kopitiam. Lack of balls, lack of independent thinking, lack of knowledge and lack of creativity.

Tell me how the nuclear thing can generate electricity.