handling discussion - serious

[Acoustic]

Hi guys

I would like to borrow some words from the cartoon of ep_11 starting 11:06 mins

please do not feel ..... whatever......... as this is not a arguement. It's just that some people feel a understeer car is a better driving / drift / track / rally machine. That's all. It's just a preference of choice and I'm not the only one. That's all.

Perhaps the real reason for me to post this is because I experience that understeer can corner as fast thing before .....

mins 11:06 words by rally driver versus takumi of ep_11


start

As the pavement's coefficient of friction lowers, you don't know wheater you're understeering or oversteering in the corners.

There is no car on earth which has neutral steering in rainy conditions, choosing the controllable option of understeer instead of the uncontrollable oversteer is obvious.

That's the way I do things. In the domain of rally, 4-wheels drifting is the most basic technique

end


BTW my car is consider 100% neutral now .... I really like it ...... if not 100% then I think at least 98%

2% understeer

with oversteer completely at the control of throttle and oversteer movement halts upon reduction of throttle with a lag of around 0.2 seconds.

It's up to you guys if you believe this figures or not???




so, I would like to hear your comments about the statement above and most importantly, hear you describe your car.

 

[Battousai]

My car is an understeer pig.

 

[Acoustic]

would you modify to become neutral? what is your preference?

 

[TauhuTauhu]

chin,
ur rear whn 3.3kg/mm will face slight oversteer?
now reduced to 2.8kg/mm?


maybe ke70/ae86 is better if more to understeer...
coz after watching drifting videos of AE86...u dont see them hardbrake so often, they only brake sikit and turn in then full throttle to make the car oversteer. tsuchiya oso said in drift bible tht these old cars tend to understeer, so just full throttle to make the tail slide and control the steering after tht...

if for drifting lah, maybe a little bit understeer will be better...

 

[Acoustic]

hi tauhu

I don't know which type would you like. More like for me it's not what I like, it's which I feel safer.

The neutral / extremely little understeer feels allot more safer - everywhere can step more fuel and the car will start to slide outwards and often it does not slide and does not turn in more too, the steering movement remains constant, extremely easy to drive.

So I life neutral / extremely little understeer because I feel safe, not because I like it.

So, you're setup is close to mine, weight and all, if you believe my word then 4 kg/mm front and 2.88 kg/mm rear.

Remember to tell Richard to copy my setup.

Oh BTW I've added 14 mm width on each rear side of the wheel and if I'm notmistaken I've added 30 mm width on each front side of the wheel. They affect too.

hmmmmm,, long story, talk later.

 

[MetalZone]

accoustic, btw what car do u drive?
my car understeers... what things to do u do to adjust its handling characteristics? i prefer a neutral handling car for normal use also

 

[TauhuTauhu]

i prefer slight understeer also, since it's easier to know...
sometimes whn the rear starts to slight, u wont know it in instant and u may not b able to take it bck once it's too long after it starts to slide...
but if understeer, u can know it at tht instant and it's alot easier to controll..
even if u wan to make it oversteer, just like wat they usually do, slam the gas...

actually i've been wanting 4.4kg/mm front and 3.3kg/mm rear. i've got the rough idea abt the front-rear spring rate ratio b4 u mention it, tht's y i wan 4.4f/3.3R coz it's like the 8/6 kg/mm setting of many famous settings on other AE86. but then 8/6 is too siff for street. so tht time i was thinking tht 4.4/3.3 will have abt the same effect just tht it's softer...i've not tried them out of coz, and i dun have enuff knowledge of those...just tht wanna follow ppl's 8/6 kg/mm setting. (tsuchiya's own 86 oso using 8F /6R) :)

i think i'll just take 4.4/3.3, then use diff camber settings to see how they affect the handling...

was thinking abt using 86's ARB coz they told me it's bigger than ke70's...bugger, i measured them...they r the same...
but my dad's old cressida's Anti roll bar is a lot larger wor...dunno can fit onto ke70 o not..
since the whole lower assembly got the same design...will go measure the distances between connection points see can match o not..

 

[TauhuTauhu]

but from wat u said, 4.4/3.3 will be slight oversteer...and 4.4/2.8 will be neutral
tht's for -ve 1 camber?

 

[auxoura]

I'm new to the technical terms but how do you gauge your springs / absorber strength? Is it written there or you have to use a special tool. I think I need to look into my handling of my car because I tend to understeer alot, my head tends to slide front a bit before making the turn....partly its because of my camber but I think my settings of my absorbers is also causing it. Thanks...

*willing to learn* ;)

 

[TauhuTauhu]

auxoura,
here's how u can check ur suspension....

So, any of you guys want to check out your absorber's performance or the entire suspension performance. You should do it at: -

911 Zentrum

Dimiliki oleh Roadsafe Auto Services Sdn Bhd - 477772-H

address changed

Employee Jeffery's Mobile +60(12)366-2910

email them

from my-acoustic.com :)


i think ur 86 no good edi...lousy edi,tht's y understeer...come come, dont keep it liao, just sell me cheap cheap RM5k. :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :lol: :lol:


can teach me a way to get 86 o not?? :( :lol:

 

[TE27levin]

Acoustic u sound like watch too much initial-d. i got one fren also talk like u, 90% sound like wat u talk oso..
all base on intial-d, study their skill, then teach me how to improve my handling and engine high rev like takumi 86 , so when i borrow the cd from fren alot word used in the cartoon sound like i heard it be4..
hahahahaa
dun watch too much la.. after watch sure i so proud of my engine or car. deng deng.. if ppl drive fast pass by sure go chase kaw kaw. alot of confidance. hahahaha if i lose sure i take takumi word in my mind, "engine does not matter, the most important is driver skill" kekekeke

 

[TE27levin]

ok then serious back to the topic.

my car ahh.. my TE is sucks in handling. more weight at the front. under when too fast to turn. so i drive slow only. max cruising also keep under 110km/h. full throttle chasis will twis, car dont run striaght. plan to install roll cage also better traction bar.


my bro AE86 le.. erm.. i can say 50/50 weight. u wan under then under, u wan over then over. if brake too hard on sandy or wet road will under cos my front tire is 195/50/15 and rear is 225/50/15.
this car is fun to drive.

 

[aEROz]

Neutral handling would turn to oversteer very easily upon cornering… I'd rather have 'some slight understeer' than 'extremely little understeer'. Then again, a car's handling also depend on the basic suspension geometrics of the car you're driving rather than parts alone (to which you can also change them ahaha).

I'm driving a beast, very hard to control once it's loose. I hate it because I don’t have the money to customize it…. :(

 

[netmatrix]

My car also understeers. Most cars are manufactured to be understeer for the sake of safety. Once u feel u can't turn the steering anymore, u throttle off.

Anyway how do we define neutral? What if different drivers have different ways of describing neutral? I don't know when neutral state comes, because i really don't know. How hard does one need to push in order to know where neutral is? G force skid pad?

What about width of axle, wheels, steering turnig radius, tyre grip? I think my head hurst now. ow ow ow!!

 

[Acoustic]

my office going to close now, so I'll answer more when I go back.

The definition of neutral ....... is difficult to describe as mentioned by netmatrix.

As for netmatrix in-ability to sense neutral / over / under ..... (ok lah, not in-ability, but unable for whatever reason)

is because the car setup is biased too much of one thing.

i.e. understeer monster, this kind of car / setup forever the driver will not know the feel / effect / meaning of neutral.

because already total under only.. will never ever be neutral

Same thing goes for oversteer, when setup too bias towards over, then only over, will never ever neutral hence driver never ever get the chance to feel neutral.



Only driver who has chance to test the "over the limit" condition of over, under, neutral then will know the next time he / she drives.

Unless, he is takumi lah ....

 

[TauhuTauhu]

My car also understeers. Most cars are manufactured to be understeer for the sake of safety. Once u feel u can't turn the steering anymore, u throttle off.

Anyway how do we define neutral? What if different drivers have different ways of describing neutral? I don't know when neutral state comes, because i really don't know. How hard does one need to push in order to know where neutral is? G force skid pad?

over and under and neautral....hmmm
wat i got in mind is...not abt pushing the car with throttle, coz FF accelerating in corners is more to face under since front wheels do the work, FR accelerating through corners more to face over since rear wheels do the work..
so we kenot take accelerattion..

say hard braking b4 entering corners, whn u turn and brake...
if front wheels skid b4 rear's do, under loh
if rear wheels skid b4 front's do, over loh
if both will not skid....and stay at the same line....then skid, 4 wheels skid at the same time...tht's normal loh...

but for uphill or downhill kenot say lah..
try turning an uphill corner while raining and u'll know...sure under
but if turning downhill corner...car tht understeers easily oso may face oversteer..
this is wat i read sometimes ago frm dunno where...i've did tht on an uphill corner and yes, it understeers a lot more.....but downhill corner never try lah...dun dare to try

i dun know whether wat i know is abt this is correct or wrong...just to tell wat i think :)

 

[Acoustic]

Originally posted by MetalZone@Mar 15 2005, 00:03
accoustic, btw what car do u drive?
my car understeers... what things to do u do to adjust its handling characteristics? i prefer a neutral handling car for normal use also

Hi

I drive old skool KE70

to change a character of the car between over - neutral - under you can try all of the below

A) front versus rear spring rate

B) front versus rear bottom stabilizer bar (most cars have it) if none must install

C) front tyres / rims track width versus rear track width

D) front versus rear tyre thickness 195 / 205 or 195 / 225 etc etc etc

E) caster, camber, toe of front versus rear again

F) ride height of front versus rear

G) aerodynamics .......

H) weight distribution

I) chassis strengthening I-i) welding I-ii) add ultra racing bars

So, in order to achieve what you want, you'll need to make all scientific records of the mods you make. Keep changing and keep analysing and later you'll find a patern. Modify using best guess scenario after that.

Modification should be one thing at one time and test for a long duration of time to fully understand it's potential. Unless already have that experience then different story.

i.e. I didn't bother to test when I have front 5.5 kg and rear 1.1 kg - think also know sure not right.

I tested front 5.5 and rear 2.2 for 2 months

I tested front 5.5 and rear 3.3 for 5 months

I tested front 4 and rear 3.3 for 11 months

finally got my front 4 rear 2.9


good luck :) you are your own car's best doctor

 

[Acoustic]

Originally posted by auxoura@Mar 15 2005, 01:32
I'm new to the technical terms but how do you gauge your springs / absorber strength? Is it written there or you have to use a special tool. I think I need to look into my handling of my car because I tend to understeer alot, my head tends to slide front a bit before making the turn....partly its because of my camber but I think my settings of my absorbers is also causing it. Thanks...

*willing to learn* ;)

We measure them - see - http://www.my-acoustic.com/Car/handling_secrets/spring_rate/how_measure_spring.htm

 

[Acoustic]

Originally posted by TE27levin@Mar 15 2005, 09:09
Acoustic u sound like watch too much initial-d. i got one fren also talk like u, 90% sound like wat u talk oso..

heheheh, oooiii don't talk so loud, :)

 

[Acoustic]

Originally posted by TE27levin@Mar 15 2005, 09:15
my bro AE86 le.. erm.. i can say 50/50 weight. u wan under then under, u wan over then over. if brake too hard on sandy or wet road will under cos my front tire is 195/50/15 and rear is 225/50/15.
this car is fun to drive.

wah lucky guy :)