Force Induction : Any Options for 4AGs?

[-e f i n i-]

Hi..
I was wondering if there are any FI options for 4AG engines.
Build spec is drift spec, so I don't think much power is needed, prolly just 250-400HP, and maybe thats already too much.

I was thinking, Superchargers or Turbochargers, which would be better.
May I know:
1)What Cheap Turbines are there in the market that can be used for 4AGs without causing too much lag?

2)Anyone knows how much is a TD06 or KKK K27?

3)How much is a regular supercharger unit for 4AG BT/SVT in the market? Does it cost more than a turbocharger?

4)Are there any cheaper supercharger units in the market other than Rotrex or Vortech? Any other centrifugal superchargers in market that are suitable for 4AG?

5)A Turbocharger Intercooler can be used on a Supercharged engine right?

6)Okay, say a SVT is included with force induction and using AE101 Supercharger block, can it boost up to 1.3bar? What would be the max for it?

7)Would it be okay if the AE101 8.9:1 pistons are coated with ceramic? Is it reliable for moderate-high boost applications?

8) Can E-Manage deal with the 20V BT/SVT computer? I heard SAFCs cant, and E-Manage is also a piggyback, so can it deal with the 20V computer?


Sorry, I'm just trying to hunt for more info. Sorry for spamming.

 

[HP Gila]

All good drift machines need good throttle ON/OFF response for easy control of the reserve suspension setting theory of the usual stable system. Enable to produce a more responsive & flexible & approximately 280hp output from the 4AG 20v. The followings parts have to be considered:



1. Change piston to thermo coated forged pistons from the supercharged engine.

2. A tubular extractor to fit mid-flow turbocharger – with moderate AR ratio flows till 8000 rpm.

3. Use a thinner Head gasket to raise CR to 9.2 – 9.5 for fast turbo spooling.

4. High flow Cylinder head modifications for better engine torque & response.

5. Fit Boost-Cut Eliminator to allow original ECU to operate normally when turbo boost cut-in.

6. Re-calibrate more fueling for correct air-fuel mix. from idle to max rpm speed.

7. Fit large enough intercooler for better power & reliability

8. Fit VTEC [Variable timing Engagement Control] Controller to re-activate VVT point when boost appear
at lower rpm range.

9. Fit Turbo Spark knock Eliminator to re-alter spark timing when boost increase.



Hope all the above info. are helpful to your next drift project.

 

[synchron]

20v is not really a force induction type of engine. You will get much out from it without alot of modifications.

Some of the part in the 20v aren't built for force inductions. The one that i know is the valve, it is very long and has a thin a valve stem. You will need to change it to a much stronger valve.

Do not use the 8.9:1 comression pistons. They are not mean for high boost and high horse power applications. It will not last 1.3 bar turbo boost.

You will have to spend alot before you can see the end result. Better settle for a 16v twincam engine.

 

[-e f i n i-]

Hi, HP Gila,
1. Change piston to thermo coated forged pistons from the supercharged engine.
hmm mind telling me more bout this? stock from ae92/101 block? how reliable is it?

3. Use a thinner Head gasket to raise CR to 9.2 – 9.5 for fast turbo spooling.
Hmm... I thought for FI cars, the lower the CR the better? How does this higher CR affect spooling rate?

8. Fit VTEC [Variable timing Engagement Control] Controller to re-activate VVT point when boost appear
at lower rpm range.
Will Apexi VAFC do the job? Lets say Haltech E6K is used, can VAFC still be installed?

Hi, synchron

Some of the part in the 20v aren't built for force inductions. The one that i know is the valve, it is very long and has a thin a valve stem. You will need to change it to a much stronger valve.
Hmm... change the valves? how do i do so? interchange with other engine ones or are there aftermarket ones?

Do not use the 8.9:1 comression pistons. They are not mean for high boost and high horse power applications. It will not last 1.3 bar turbo boost.
In that case.. hmm, what piston do u reccomend?

Lol, i thought this thread was dead...

 

[synchron]

1) All 4age block are almost the same. 2 type of blocks, 86KW and 100KW blocks. Main different is the internal parts like con-rod and crankshafts.

2) High comression is for low boost only. Boosting more than 1 bar will have a side effect. Engine will start lagging starting from 5000RPM. Higher rate of spoiling the engine.

3) Use aw11 pistons which is 8.0:1 compression ratio. More reliable and will produce much stronger high end power. If want a little higher compression use metal gasket with it.

4) 20v stem only 5mm stick and 10.5- 11 cm long. They also have undercut on the valve stem. Making it less than 5 mm in certain places on the valve. Not sure there is any other engine valve which can fit in.

5) 1.3 bar of boost recommended to change the stocks injector to the 1jz injectors.

6) Almost forgot about the ecu. Stock 20v ecu is for N/A only. Need to get a turbo or s/c ecu to go with your engine there. Need to use turbo MAP sensors also.

 

[TRDae92]

Share with u guys. thanks

Well, quiet interest when reading this topic, if u guy wanna see 20v turbo just take a look visit my website at http://www.cardomain.com/id/trd_ae92 with no lies at all, i'm the owner to having this engine, but i will convert to NA due to i've been tired for turbo, cos got new born daughter, need to consider.

The 20v can be use for force induction but it take a lot of time for research. if u guys visit the website u do find out my friend's car 20v is supercharger(Corolla AE111). But the ecu he is using bt na only. the performance is not quiet bad, with 3mm 20v blitz gasket, 6 speed gear box.


For 20v convert to turbo, the piston really does count in matter, if for high boost at 1.3bar. changing nozzle to 1jz injector(420cc). head gasket 1.1mm. and running with gze ecu. running double coil. gze lsd g'box. aw11 piston.

My other friend did the same things early than me on his celica too, but is BT 20v turbo. same spec like mine.just the ecu is BT NA. at first he bought the SAFC for tuning. but still it does not meet what he wants. later he upgrade to microtech. now still upgrading.


But what i gonna tell is, 20v if convert to turbo, ECU is needed but not NA one, either get haltech or other type of aftermarket ecu to tune with. then the injector must change also the piston too if u think neccessary. please do correct me here if i'm giving any doubt to everyone here. thanks. i'm now also selling off my turbo parts and post on the forum too. if u guys interest pls take a visit there. Thanks

1. http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=24581

2. http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=24014

3. http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=22056

 

[synchron]

How much boost are u running?

Huge turbo that you are using over there. Great work. Alot of Sarawakian now using 20v turbo.

There is something i wanna know personally, how much power does this 20v turbo make? Are they as reliable as the 16v turbo engine?

 

[TRDae92]

Well, synchron, the 20v is reliable as 16v and is better performance than 16v due to the valve itself. with vvti response, but i using the gze, there is some problems, the boost cut is around 0.8 bar then it cut, the turbo i'm using is quiet turbo lag, power come about 4500rpm, once u heard the turbine spin, wwoooooo........yiiiii.... power comes very quick but it cut for max 0.8bar, even i got blitz boost controller also cannot hold that longer, need to buy the HKS fcd to solve the problems, but since not going to continue playing it, just turn to NA mod.

If u using the 20v svt or bt itself ecu, it won't having a boost cut problem, at least higher can go for 1.3 bar borr....li hai hor.... also got vvt help so the timing response is sensitive. But gze ecu, the timing response a bit lag. but it runnning double coil system. that's the different here.

Well, just sharing here but not try to show anything here lor.....sorry yah efini:)

 

[-e f i n i-]

Hmm so basically, when u wanna turbocharge an engine, you have to install FCD, SLD and all those? I dont quite understand bout boost cut... is it there for safety reasons so that your engine wont blow after going past a certain boost level?

Yeah.. 20V is better in terms of performance, but which one would be more lucrative to turbocharge? 16V AE92 or 20V BT/SVT?

And also speaking bout drift spec one, supercharger would be better since its response is better right? But how far can you pump out form an engine using supercharger? how much can it boost up? and also how much is one supercharger unit bigger than the AE101 stock one in the market? Mind to enlighten me on these?

no no ae92.. its okay hahah.. i actually love the pics in your cardomain url
eh me from kuching too eh... bring me for a ride in your turbo car can ah?
hehehe

 

[synchron]

Can the 20v go that high? That is the question? Dont think the head will last until 250hp or 1.3 bar.

Why does the MAP sensors boost cut at 0.8 bar? If you are using 4agze system, it should also be boost cut at 1 bar? DLI coil is always the best way to go for high performance and RPM.

May be we can meet in August, I will be coming to Miri for the drag race.

 

[rollakid]

Can the 20v go that high? That is the question? Dont think the head will last until 250hp or 1.3 bar.

Why does the MAP sensors boost cut at 0.8 bar? If you are using 4agze system, it should also be boost cut at 1 bar? DLI coil is always the best way to go for high performance and RPM.

May be we can meet in August, I will be coming to Miri for the drag race.

hmm... 5 valve.. less squish area (or whatever you call it). so most of the surface of the head is the valve itself, sommore the valve for 20v quite thin. somehow i agree with this, dunno how durable it is. but 250hp is no prob lar, prob is the boost. since you can make it rev high like hell and get 250hp by pushing all the torque to the upper end :D

 

[TRDae92]

Can the 20v go that high? That is the question? Dont think the head will last until 250hp or 1.3 bar.

Why does the MAP sensors boost cut at 0.8 bar? If you are using 4agze system, it should also be boost cut at 1 bar? DLI coil is always the best way to go for high performance and RPM.

May be we can meet in August, I will be coming to Miri for the drag race.

Synchron, the 20v head do can support for 1.3 bar, plus i did change the piston and injector to 420cc each.

the map sensor will only read the boost and vacumn, but only the different is, gze system standard is 0.9-1bar cut, cos i change to 20v head and all the counting is different, once the map reading is different to gze head, it will cut early than that. i agree that gze ecu boost cut is at 1 bar chun.


Miri, drag race kah???errrrrr.....i think wont be going that, my dont like drag race, just wanna share here lar, if u did pass through kuching, please let me know ok? come out for drink or whatever.

 

[TRDae92]

Hi, efini, since u asking me taking u out for a ride, ok??? if possible tomolo noon just call me 019-8882568(terence), i also taking tauhu tauhu for a ride ok?...

for the question u asking, the gze can boost max to 1 bar with big pulley, BUT!!!!! it depend on ur charger pump..... if the magnetic clutch slip or we say PIU CLUTCH, and it won't hold till 1 bar, maybe just 0.7bar nia, else u welding the clutch to work 24HR, become 7-11 liao...ehhee:D . then u will get a fully boost. even how good the pump is i only can boost for 1 bar, more than that, kean CUT lorr...


i still remember that once i get my gze out from the shop....wau...really can't forget the moment i press the peddle.... just like the" FIRST TIME" ,errr, don't think other way yah....

If getting the 20v turbo also can, but really need to consider deeply cos either using gze ecu system to run double coil. or using the 20v ecu to run.

 

[HP Gila]

It is good here to simply control some technical know-how in building a drift 4AG engine with only 1.3kg/cm pressure and the linearly output to 280hp @about 8000 rpm.

• What is interesting to me about the piston or valves damage is how high it spikes the internal combustion pressure. If it is uncontrolled, and that is what damages the rings, kill bearings and can even breaks the valves, especially when the good breathing 5 valves/cyl. engine rev. more than 9000rpm.The original 4AG silicone-aluminum alloy piston with thermo barrier coating on it, have the similar design of most proven turbo pistons from JE or Arias which uses to stand high hp. The 5 per cyls. light weight valves stress even by putting 30% more springs load with the std. cams lift is too safe to rev. to around 8000 in this 4AG 20.

• If you turbocharged any engine in the 80’- Those days lowering CR to 7.0 produce big horsepower numbers without strain on the engine look good is due to lack of today’s high precision & resolution electronic technology. A well-prepaid 4AG 20 engine with 9.5 to 1 CR with 1.5kg/cm of boost added have the combustion pressure of around 1500 psi only able to produce 320hp. If compares the higher 9.5CR. & 8.0CR, the air-fuel mix is compressed more as the compression pressure goes up; it becomes hotter and has a fast burn rate to aids turbo spool-up time.

• In the task of ECU. Any good tuners agree that there are thousands of factory ECU engineers in Toyota in designing & commanding the high bits microprocessor data & the fast response hardware & software of the 4AG ECU. Why spend too much time to rip-out the beauty and good works of engineers of the original ECU if you skilled enough to provide correct mixture ratio & sparking time? In addition, VVT only like negative going pulse to trigger valve.

 

[rollakid]

Hi, efini, since u asking me taking u out for a ride, ok??? if possible tomolo noon just call me 019-8882568(terence), i also taking tauhu tauhu for a ride ok?...

wah.. got extra space for me or not? :D

 

[synchron]

1.3 bar doesnt mean the car will get 250hp unless you are using a huge turbo.

Fast respond FI needs to have small turbo and small amount of boost but it makes small amount of hp. Big turbo will make the engine laggist but it will make alot of power and boost.

 

[TRDae92]

yes, my friend use big turbo lor..... garratte 2530 mix with sr20 output, then he can reach 1.3bar. Mine one belum boost till 1.3bar already kena cut!!!! but i don't get big turbo.

 

[-e f i n i-]

Woah thanks for the invite trd_ae92!! ^__^. but then i think surely got approval probs with my mom.. sighh but i wanna sit in turbo car lerr... T__T all these while sit in parents NA cars only...
so like what rollakid said... 250hp is no problem... hmm so the main prob is the boost? so say if u try to get 250hp from 2bar boost.. the engine will blow for sure, right?
so can i say that the 20V head is good only for high power NA applications and no hig power Turbo applications?

The idea of supercharging seems quite enticing to me, but what bothers me is the power gain from it..., i dont think there are much compressor/b lower units suitable for 1.6L engines right?

The original 4AG silicone-aluminum alloy piston with thermo barrier coating on it, have the similar design of most proven turbo pistons from JE or Arias which uses to stand high hp. The 5 per cyls. light weight valves stress even by putting 30% more springs load with the std. cams lift is too safe to rev. to around 8000 in this 4AG 20.
Hmm... is it that the stock 4AG pistons are already as good as Arias and JE pistons?
If we also change the con-rods and valve springs... the block shud be able to stand higher HP right?

Will lightened con-rods jeopardize the engine's ability to stand higher boot pressure?


Hmm... TD06 or K27 big enough?
Anyway... how is boostcut dealt with?

 

[synchron]

Without any programable ecu, the 2530 turbo is rated at 190 to 200 hp. In your case you should be having about 200-220 hp max on standard ecu. Lower end will be laggist because of big turbine housing and also because of big injectors size.

I think the problem that you cannot go more than 0.8 bar is because 20v camshaft has a very high overlap rate. Once the camshaft overlap alot, it will not be able to hold alot of boost.

 

[-e f i n i-]

Hm, how bout changing the cams for some Toda cams 264 or 272 profile cams?